[nathandist]

I am beginning to do some research on performance chips for my car, and I quickly became quite skeptical. Most performance chips say that they can increase up to 50hp and 50tq. Also, they save on gas. Most chips are also only 60-70 dollars. Anyone have personal experiences they can share? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/images/smilies/bowdown.gif

 

[MSchu]

Reflashes can add several useful things... one of them usually isn't 50bhp and 50 ftlbs of tq on non turbo cars

 

[nathandist]

Reflashes can add several useful things... one of them usually isn't 50bhp and 50 ftlbs of tq on non turbo cars

Reflashes?

 

[argus]

That means flashing the EPROM or other ROM on your car's computer so it has a new set of instructions to follow, thereby increasing fuel efficiency or raising power (or either of those)

 

[prepreludesh]

This is a common question I'm sure most people have when they see these wonder chips. While the numbers might actually be factual, let me explain to you how they work and how they can market such claims...

First of all, the "chip" is nothing more than a resistor. Resistors' jobs are to stop the flow of an electric current. The current that the company's that sell these chips wants you to interupt is the MAF (or MAP) sensor's signal line. What the MAF or MAP sensor does is send a calculated electrical signal (higher voltage to indicate more airflow, lower to indicate lower airflow) to your engine's computer.

In normal conditions, when the car is warmed up and these sensors are telling your car how much airflow is detected, the engine computer will tell your fuel injectors how much fuel to spray in. This is also the time when the engine computer optimizes the amount of fuel to be sprayed in to give your car not only the optimal horsepower, but optimal fuel efficiency and emissions. Your oxygen sensor in the exhaust also lets your car know how efficiently the fuel/air mix in the combustion chamber is being burnt, but that's not the point of this chip...

So now that you know a little bit about how modern fuel injected cars work, let's take a look at how this chip gets its claim to fame on horsepower. First of all, your engine has to reach operating temperature to run on "closed loop" This is your engine's most efficient way of running, where it takes the input of the intake sensor and the exhaust sensors and adjusts your fuel injectors pulse length and timing to such a point that it makes your car run at its optimal level. But when the car is not at operating temperature, how does it still run?

Well, that's why your car has certain fuel maps stored into the computer. Before the temperature sensors and flow sensors can heat up, the numbers are inaccurate so the car uses preset fuel maps to inject a preset level of fuel to maintain smooth idle at cold startup and decent fuel economy. It is when this happens that the car is getting very bad fuel mileage because it errors on the safe side by injecting too much fuel instead of too little. So essentially, when you solder in this "chip" (resistor) the car is running in this setting (called open loop) and is injecting more fuel than it needs, because it reads that the car has not reached operating temperature. The company that first explored this idea, realized that compared to the power charts of a cars engine runnign at operating temperature with all sensors working corretly, the same car having lots of fuel injected into it while the engine was warmed up, actually made some power gains here and there. The reason is simple, more air and more fuel equals more power, but to a certain limit!

The chip is by no means safe, nor will it make continual power. In fact, it will only make additional power MAYBE here or there. The chip is a scam because they tested it on alot of different cars and probably at some point, they found that one some car, they made 50 more horsepower at some certain point in the RPM range. This was probably on a big power engine anyway (think Corvette) and when they saw the gain, they get to say the word "dyno proven" or whatnot.

So in conclusion, by installing this chip, your car will throw a check engine light, get terrible gas mileage, get terrible power, not pass emissions and idle terrible. You are basically paying a company to make your car run shitty.

Any more questions?

 

[nathandist]

Haha perfect conclusion. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

[Accord2004]

This is a common question I'm sure most people have when they see these wonder chips. While the numbers might actually be factual, let me explain to you how they work and how they can market such claims...

First of all, the "chip" is nothing more than a resistor. Resistors' jobs are to stop the flow of an electric current. The current that the company's that sell these chips wants you to interupt is the MAF (or MAP) sensor's signal line. What the MAF or MAP sensor does is send a calculated electrical signal (higher voltage to indicate more airflow, lower to indicate lower airflow) to your engine's computer.

In normal conditions, when the car is warmed up and these sensors are telling your car how much airflow is detected, the engine computer will tell your fuel injectors how much fuel to spray in. This is also the time when the engine computer optimizes the amount of fuel to be sprayed in to give your car not only the optimal horsepower, but optimal fuel efficiency and emissions. Your oxygen sensor in the exhaust also lets your car know how efficiently the fuel/air mix in the combustion chamber is being burnt, but that's not the point of this chip...

So now that you know a little bit about how modern fuel injected cars work, let's take a look at how this chip gets its claim to fame on horsepower. First of all, your engine has to reach operating temperature to run on "closed loop" This is your engine's most efficient way of running, where it takes the input of the intake sensor and the exhaust sensors and adjusts your fuel injectors pulse length and timing to such a point that it makes your car run at its optimal level. But when the car is not at operating temperature, how does it still run?

Well, that's why your car has certain fuel maps stored into the computer. Before the temperature sensors and flow sensors can heat up, the numbers are inaccurate so the car uses preset fuel maps to inject a preset level of fuel to maintain smooth idle at cold startup and decent fuel economy. It is when this happens that the car is getting very bad fuel mileage because it errors on the safe side by injecting too much fuel instead of too little. So essentially, when you solder in this "chip" (resistor) the car is running in this setting (called open loop) and is injecting more fuel than it needs, because it reads that the car has not reached operating temperature. The company that first explored this idea, realized that compared to the power charts of a cars engine runnign at operating temperature with all sensors working corretly, the same car having lots of fuel injected into it while the engine was warmed up, actually made some power gains here and there. The reason is simple, more air and more fuel equals more power, but to a certain limit!

The chip is by no means safe, nor will it make continual power. In fact, it will only make additional power MAYBE here or there. The chip is a scam because they tested it on alot of different cars and probably at some point, they found that one some car, they made 50 more horsepower at some certain point in the RPM range. This was probably on a big power engine anyway (think Corvette) and when they saw the gain, they get to say the word "dyno proven" or whatnot.

So in conclusion, by installing this chip, your car will throw a check engine light, get terrible gas mileage, get terrible power, not pass emissions and idle terrible. You are basically paying a company to make your car run shitty.

Any more questions?

When you install a Cold Air INduction system, does re-program the cars computer to tell it to spray a certain amount of fuel in? If so, does it change anything in terms a more powerful combustion?

 

[prepreludesh]

Supposedly, here's how that works...

Look at a Cold Air System compared to the OEM intake of any car. Chances are you'll see a maze of tubes, varying in length and size and diameter. These are all engineered to first and foremost, fit in the engine, then they are engineered for sound level then they are engineered for flow. Factory engineers who developed the intake system of the car, know how well the stock intake flows. Therefore, they can start tuning/programming the ECU with correct fuel maps based on the RPM and load on the car based on the amount of air they forsee it flowing.

Later on in the cars development, they will fine tune this of course for optimal idle, power delivery, and fuel efficiency as well as the most important factor, ensuring the car engine does not pre-detonate (engine knock). This is why OEM engines run so rich at higher RPMs, they're playing it safe. (if anyone wants Air/Fuel Ratio explained, go ahead and ask and I'll write about it later).

So now that you know that, here is why installing a cold air intake will increase the amount of fuel sprayed by your injectors. The piping of any cold air intake will be greater in diameter with less constrictions than the stock intake (also, the filter is less restrictive IMO). This will allow more air to flow, but your ECU will recognize this increase in air flow and tell the injectors to start increasing fuel, because like I said before, it is all in order to keep the engine safe (running to lean will destroy your engine). So this is why you may see fuel economy decrease. The best way to keep some sort of fuel economy is to take the negative battery cable off and reset the computer.

The reason companies like K&N and AEM can give impressive horsepower claims is that when the computer sees more airflow and therefore, injects more fuel, it is because more fuel and air equals more power.

And for another tidbit of information, the best results of a cold air intake are with tuning or a tuning chip like trucks advertise all the time. It is because they have modified the engines computer to not inject more fuel and this will also still make power and retain or gain fuel efficiency. But real chip tuners are expensive and doing it the even better way which is dyno tuning it, is even more expensive.

I may as well write a summary of air fuel ratio in my next installment, but I am tired :wave:bye

 

[Accord2004]

Thanks for the information.

 

[accord4daddy]

That was explained very well. Good job!

 

[prepreludesh]

Alright, I wanted to tell you all about the air fuel ratio, so here it is...

When the combustion process takes place in an engine, oxygen and nitrogen (air) combine with fuel (hydrocarbons with are basically carbon and hydrogen) and are then ignited, the ideal byproduct should be carbon monoxide and water (CO and H2O). Ironically, science tells us that the optimal power an engine can make is by burning the air/fuel mixture at this perfect rate which is called "stoichiometric." This is when all fuel is perfectly combusted.

But this process is hard to achieve in any kind of engine, especially a car that does not stay in one place all the time. As a car drives, the altitude changes, which affects air density and outside air temperature changes which affects oxygen density and humidity changes depending on the weather and a persons driving habits change how hot the engine coolant and oil get, which also affects how fuel burns efficiently.

With so many factors, it's an automotive nightmare to design enough sensors to accurately measure all of those parameters. The knock sensor, air temperature sensor, MAP or MAF sensor and O2 sensor is some of the best sensors that are used to measure different variables. In the end, all of these sensors tell the engine computer their data so the computer can send the electric pulses to the fuel injectors telling them how much fuel to inject.

The coolest thing with manufacturers tinkering with fuel economy today, is that they're becoming more and more ingenious in how they achieve this stoichiometric equilibrium (and beyond! I'll explain in a minute). The carbuerated engine was a great beginning step, it actually achieved a decent efficiency, but the problem was that it couldn't atomize fuel finely enough at lower RPMs (where most driving is done). Fuel atomization is key to efficiency and this is why... have you ever held a match up to a can of aerosal spray? It lights immediately and completely. Have you ever held a match up to a stream of lighter fluid? It pretty much won't light or it's harder to light. Knowing this is knowing why fuel atomization will help fuel efficiency. If your fuel doesn't atomize in the combustion chamber, when it lights, it won't be completely burnt. If that happens, then you'll get an incomplete burn that is sooty and not making as much power as it could. In a car, this is what would be called "running rich." You might've seen these cars on the street, you'll be able to tell by the excess black smoke coming out of the tailpipe and the smell of fuel or burnt fuel.

Let's get back to stoich for a minute. At sea level, stoicheometric in an engine refers to a combustion process that leaves 14.7 parts air and 1 part fuel by volume. If you are running rich, you will see air fuel ratios of 12 parts air, 1 part fuel or even worse. This means that there is more fuel being injected than can efficiently be burnt. Running lean, however, has a larger part of air to fuel, such as 16:1.

These ratios I was just explaining is what your oxygen sensor tells your engine computer. Based on the conductivity of an electrical circuit inside of the oxygen sensor (oxygen will increase conductivity, therefore changing the electrical system, which is how the O2 sensor works), it will tell your computer the air fuel ratio in your exhaust. Modern day cars have multiple oxygen sensors to recognize consistency and how well your catalytic convertor works.

Oh by the way, for those of you who don't know how a catalytic convertor works, to inside portion has precious metals inside of it (i.e. platinum or pallidium) that react to the exhaust when heated to the right temperatures. When a cat. is warmed up, it will create a chemical process where it bonds the carbon monoxide which is dangerous to humans, to less dangerous carbon dioxide (what we exhale). That is the basic principles of it, but newer cars have hi-tech cats that do much more.

So going to back to O2 sensors, you know that with any automotive part, it degrades over time, which means the signals that it sends to the engine computer might be slightly off. So when you go into Auto Zone or wherever and see their signs that say "replacing your O2 sensor saves and average of $XXX a year" is true, because the air fuel ratio will be better balanced and more accurate. (same is true for spark plugs too )

I'll write more on a performance aspect of knowing how your O2 sensors work a little bit later!

 

[accord4daddy]

And once again, good job!

 

[07AccordEx-L]

i didn't read thru the long posts but this applies to both i4 and v6 accord. u CANNOT chip them because our ECU's r smart and although u may get a difference in performance, it will revert back to the way it was prior to the chipping. It jus doesn't work well. esp when tuning.

there r people who tuned their k24's with all bolt ons vs an untuned k24 w/ all bolt ons. well they both made the same dyno results. so save ur money and don't try to chip. and for 50whp/50wtq, it would not cost $70. more like about $2000.

There is a reflash like some of u said but i've only seen it available for tsx and tl i believe. i think if u did put in the ecu's and maybe a swap it'll work but..

 

[prepreludesh]

Yes, Hondata does not make a reflash for the new Accord, you can see their list of what they do reflash for here:

http://www.hondata.com/reflash.html


And if any car could get 50hp/50tq for $2,000, then everyone would be doing it! Nothing like that exists. They say 1 horsepower usually costs $100. That's a pretty good ratio with all things considered.

 

[kopimon]

Yes, Hondata does not make a reflash for the new Accord, you can see their list of what they do reflash for here:

http://www.hondata.com/reflash.html


And if any car could get 50hp/50tq for $2,000, then everyone would be doing it! Nothing like that exists. They say 1 horsepower usually costs $100. That's a pretty good ratio with all things considered.

Thanks for taking the time to write up all that information .. it was a good read :salue:

 

[turbodave]

Alright, I wanted to tell you all about the air fuel ratio, so here it is...

When the combustion process takes place in an engine, oxygen and nitrogen (air) combine with fuel (hydrocarbons with are basically carbon and hydrogen) and are then ignited, the ideal byproduct should be carbon monoxide and water (CO and H2O). Ironically, science tells us that the optimal power an engine can make is by burning the air/fuel mixture at this perfect rate which is called "stoichiometric." This is when all fuel is perfectly combusted.

But this process is hard to achieve in any kind of engine, especially a car that does not stay in one place all the time. As a car drives, the altitude changes, which affects air density and outside air temperature changes which affects oxygen density and humidity changes depending on the weather and a persons driving habits change how hot the engine coolant and oil get, which also affects how fuel burns efficiently.

With so many factors, it's an automotive nightmare to design enough sensors to accurately measure all of those parameters. The knock sensor, air temperature sensor, MAP or MAF sensor and O2 sensor is some of the best sensors that are used to measure different variables. In the end, all of these sensors tell the engine computer their data so the computer can send the electric pulses to the fuel injectors telling them how much fuel to inject.

The coolest thing with manufacturers tinkering with fuel economy today, is that they're becoming more and more ingenious in how they achieve this stoichiometric equilibrium (and beyond! I'll explain in a minute). The carbuerated engine was a great beginning step, it actually achieved a decent efficiency, but the problem was that it couldn't atomize fuel finely enough at lower RPMs (where most driving is done). Fuel atomization is key to efficiency and this is why... have you ever held a match up to a can of aerosal spray? It lights immediately and completely. Have you ever held a match up to a stream of lighter fluid? It pretty much won't light or it's harder to light. Knowing this is knowing why fuel atomization will help fuel efficiency. If your fuel doesn't atomize in the combustion chamber, when it lights, it won't be completely burnt. If that happens, then you'll get an incomplete burn that is sooty and not making as much power as it could. In a car, this is what would be called "running rich." You might've seen these cars on the street, you'll be able to tell by the excess black smoke coming out of the tailpipe and the smell of fuel or burnt fuel.

Let's get back to stoich for a minute. At sea level, stoicheometric in an engine refers to a combustion process that leaves 14.7 parts air and 1 part fuel by volume. If you are running rich, you will see air fuel ratios of 12 parts air, 1 part fuel or even worse. This means that there is more fuel being injected than can efficiently be burnt. Running lean, however, has a larger part of air to fuel, such as 16:1.

These ratios I was just explaining is what your oxygen sensor tells your engine computer. Based on the conductivity of an electrical circuit inside of the oxygen sensor (oxygen will increase conductivity, therefore changing the electrical system, which is how the O2 sensor works), it will tell your computer the air fuel ratio in your exhaust. Modern day cars have multiple oxygen sensors to recognize consistency and how well your catalytic convertor works.

Oh by the way, for those of you who don't know how a catalytic convertor works, to inside portion has precious metals inside of it (i.e. platinum or pallidium) that react to the exhaust when heated to the right temperatures. When a cat. is warmed up, it will create a chemical process where it bonds the carbon monoxide which is dangerous to humans, to less dangerous carbon dioxide (what we exhale). That is the basic principles of it, but newer cars have hi-tech cats that do much more.

So going to back to O2 sensors, you know that with any automotive part, it degrades over time, which means the signals that it sends to the engine computer might be slightly off. So when you go into Auto Zone or wherever and see their signs that say "replacing your O2 sensor saves and average of $XXX a year" is true, because the air fuel ratio will be better balanced and more accurate. (same is true for spark plugs too )

I'll write more on a performance aspect of knowing how your O2 sensors work a little bit later!

NICELY DONE!!!

Since I've converted to speed density and WideBand O2 control in my GN....well, fun!!

In your upcoming explanation of O2 sensors, do a write-up on NBO2(narrowband O2's) and WBO2(wideband O2's), and how they differ and why certain ones are used in certain conditions.

 

[MSchu]

except the problem with carbs was not limited to the fact that fuel could be properly atomized... it's that the settings on a carb can only be optimized for one set or one small range of atmospheric parameters.

 

[prepreludesh]

Hey thanks for the compliments guys. I enjoy learning about this kind of stuff and yeah, I'll do a writeup on the differences between narrowband and wideband. I have an AEM UEGO Wideband on my Prelude and it's hooked up to the Hondata S300 ECU I have for it as well, so I'm pretty well versed in them. I will explain it when I get a little more free time!