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Drew03Accord

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
If you think warming your car helps combat engine wear and promote longevity.....here is something you warmers can try next time you cold start. Practice some tach watching.

Start your car and note the RPM on your Tach. A perfectly cold car will idle (rich) at around 1500 rpm.

Understand that whether you are idling or moving, the pistons and their oil and compression rings are still working away in the cylinders… exhaust valves are still opening and closing, cams are still rotating at half the speed of the crankshaft's 1500 RPM, etc.

Note: For the seconds that it takes the oil pump to distribute oil from the sump, the most wear is occurring. It would be more beneficial for engines, if the car would crank 5-10 times before ignition actually occurs. The act of cranking engages the oil pump, but at a much slower rate than a running engine. (Back in the day, I used to pull my fuel pump fuse if the car sat too long, just to get an extended cranks of ten seconds or so. Nowadays, the oil filters are pretty good about mitigating drain-back, so oil is in the line, ready to flow.) Of course, extended cranking in this instant on world, you’d get the “what’s wrong with your car” look from others... and it would be harder on batteries.

Anyway, back on topic. So, turn the car on and see 1.5K instantly on the tach – while parked. At this 1.5K, friction is occurring whether or not the car is moving. Now, wait 10-15 seconds then put your car in gear. With your foot on the brake, you will see your idle has dropped to 1000 RPM. That’s right, your engine speed has decreased due to load. So what do you think this means to the cylinders? The pistons, connecting rods, crank, etc. are moving at a slower rate! Now take your foot off the brake and let the car roll without touching the gas and look at the tach. Well, I’ll be damned...the car is rolling and engine speed is 1000 RPM, which is considerably less than it was, sitting in park. In order to reach the "warmer's" idle of 1500 RPM, you actually have to apply gas, so now the car is moving even faster. So what are you really accomplishing just sitting there?

Now, we can argue about load and whatever stresses that generates, but it still does not change the fact that you can actually be in driving with same RPM you had sitting. Furthermore, load translates into heat which will warm your engine and its surrounding peripherals faster. Contrary to the beliefs of some, it is much better to start cold and drive off slowly, allowing your transmission, etc. to warm up nicely -vs- idling for 5 minutes then hitting the gas as some do. The rest of the car is still cold!

Unless you live right off a freeway exit, or a busy street where heavy acceleration is needed, you do not need not warm your car up. Stationary warmups not only waste gas and add unnecessary pollutants to the environment, they do not help with regard to engine wear.

So to summarize....on cold start... whether you think the oil is too cold, or whether it's flowing or not... 1500 RPM's worth of wear is still occurring. AND.... it will take less time for those RPMs to fall and oil temp to rise, if you'd just drive the damn car.

Drew
 
Only reason why I would warm up my car just so by time I come back to my car it'll be nice and warm inside but then again I think about the possibility of someone driving it off while I'm warming it up so... I'll pass on warming up my car and take it easy on the pedal in the morning
 
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I was about to say the same thing ^^^

Good info, Drew. Thanks.

I do tend to warm it up though for 5-10 minutes up here in the mountains because the cold is ruthless! I like getting inside a warm car.
 
I start it up cold and let it run for 15-20 seconds, if I'm not in a hurry. If I'm in a hurry i'll just drive it as usual.

With today's thinner oils (synthetic, 0w20) *ahem* the oil gets around almost immediately, and probably has a light coating from the last time the engine ran. The surfaces are cold and smooth anyway so I wouldn't worry to much about wear.

There was a member in the 9th gen section that did an oil analysis with 0w20 bragging about redlining right after a cold start in sub zero temps just to see what the analysis looked like. It came back perfect.

Basically, it doesn't matter with today's thinner oils and modern engines.
 
In my case, I live pretty much right off the highway exit.. (maybe 800 meters away)
So my normal routine on a cold morning here in Toronto,Canada is, Start the car.. Usually starts up after a couple of cranks too many (need a new battery before snow fall) and idles around 1,500-1,700 RPM.

I let it sit a minimum of atleast 1 minute before backing out of the drive way.. At this point its sitting at about 1,200 rpm idle. (Around 600 once fully warmed)
Now, even though i should let it warm up a bit more before getting on the highway, for those of you that know what traffic in Toronto is like, the highway (401) is at a crawl so no hope of even accelerating quickly.

Just hit the 5000km mark and its time for an oil change. (first one since i've owned it)
Oil indicator still says %40 and its maybe "burnt" 1/4 quart and i dont baby this thing.
Quite surprised as my 6th gen would burn through a 1/4 quart in a week lol.
 
I doesn't get really cold in Louisiana, but the only time I'll let the car sit for a few minutes is for the defroster to clear the windshield. Otherwise, I start it up and back out of the driveway right away. I have 126k miles doing this, and the engine doesn't burn any oil between 5000 mile oil changes.
 
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Its hard to change the mind of a warm-upper. Its like trying to change the mind of a 3k synthetic oil changer. There's a mental block that cannot be defeated by any amount of reason or science.

I really have no idea how anyone has 1-2+ mins to idle their car every time they drive it. 1-2 effing mins to just sit still in your car like...4 times a day, or more??? Get a job.

I might give the car 30 seconds to 1min to idle if its crazy sub-zero. My cars don't idle down under gear load...because I don't have any automatics. I get in, wait a couple seconds, then drive gently. Once its warmed up...I drive normally. :shrug:
 
Fifteen thousand RPM!?!?!?! HOLY COW! WHAT VALVE SPRINGS ARE YOU RUNNING?!?!?!?

like this? :grin

Even this baby idles at 1,500 cold.

I usually start the car and pull away 5 seconds later so it has a chance to get oil flowing before having some load on it. Then, when it's cold i'll give it like 15 seconds before pulling out. I will not get over 2,600 RPM until the coolant reaches 150 degrees Fahrenheit. If there is ice on my windshield I will clear it all, or most of it off before starting the engine.

If you really want to do the best thing for your car, then get an engine block heater.
 
Its hard to change the mind of a warm-upper. Its like trying to change the mind of a 3k synthetic oil changer. There's a mental block that cannot be defeated by any amount of reason or science.

I really have no idea how anyone has 1-2+ mins to idle their car every time they drive it. 1-2 effing mins to just sit still in your car like...4 times a day, or more??? Get a job.

I might give the car 30 seconds to 1min to idle if its crazy sub-zero. My cars don't idle down under gear load...because I don't have any automatics. I get in, wait a couple seconds, then drive gently. Once its warmed up...I drive normally. :shrug:
I should have mentioned i only do this in the morning after the car has been sitting for 12+ hours..
When i get into my car after my shift (8 hours) i just start er up and go..

BTW... When im sitting him my car for a minute... literally 60 seconds out of my day for my car to warm up that little bit.. its in the morning when im going to MY JOB.
 
Fifteen thousand RPM!?!?!?! HOLY COW! WHAT VALVE SPRINGS ARE YOU RUNNING?!?!?!?

like this? :grin
View attachment 284601
Even this baby idles at 1,500 cold.

I usually start the car and pull away 5 seconds later so it has a chance to get oil flowing before having some load on it. Then, when it's cold i'll give it like 15 seconds before pulling out. I will not get over 2,600 RPM until the coolant reaches 150 degrees Fahrenheit. If there is ice on my windshield I will clear it all, or most of it off before starting the engine.

If you really want to do the best thing for your car, then get an engine block heater.
Hmmm.. i have not yet looked for a block heater, but does anyone know if Canadian spec cars come with them?

Sorry for the double post.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Fifteen thousand RPM!?!?!?! HOLY COW! WHAT VALVE SPRINGS ARE YOU RUNNING?!?!?!?
.
HA! Thanks for the correction.... that typo was in a few spots too. :grin
 
Really interesting post. Very logical, and excellent point on transmission fluid temperature. As an aside, I always thought the temp gauge was misleading, since the reported operating coolant temperature doesn't always reflect a car at optimal running temperature.

Just to play devils advocate (and try to justify my probably unjustified 1-2 minute cold start warm-up routine ;) ), here are a few questions I'd like to throw out to you well versed car folks. :devil

1) Could it be argued that we are underselling the difference in engine stress created between 1,500 rpms in park and 1,500 rpms in drive? Could slowly warming up a engine a lower load cause less damage than a faster warm-up caused by greater output?

2) We know that having the oil up to operating temperature is the most ideal condition for the engine. However, if we are expediting the creation of heat by increasing the size / frequency of the combustion process, and by friction, would it be possible that we creating additional engine stress through a more rapid thermal "shock" between a cold and hot temperature state? What about increasing the differences in temperature between different locations of the engine?

3) Also, the serpentine belt and all the attached components runs at a proportional speed to the engine; could a slow warm up help increase the longevity of these parts?
 
The oil pump is turning and moving oil the second you hit the starter.

There is no reason to wait any amount of time to start driving with a fuel injected car.

Unless you are salcuta88, where that cold weather in the NC mountains is so ruthless..... :laugh

I know people like to put their butt in warm cars, just teasing since you brought it up!
 
Really interesting post. Very logical, and excellent point on transmission fluid temperature. As an aside, I always thought the temp gauge was misleading, since the reported operating coolant temperature doesn't always reflect a car at optimal running temperature.
The dummy gauge is very misleading. The gauge stays in the same spot whether its 186 degrees or 220 degrees. Once you get past that though, then it starts to move. I would know, I got mine up to 249 degrees once. :0

1) Could it be argued that we are underselling the difference in engine stress created between 1,500 rpms in park and 1,500 rpms in drive? Could slowly warming up a engine a lower load cause less damage than a faster warm-up caused by greater output?
Yes, some are very much underselling loaded vs unloaded. I would say once the oil has reached all the parts, then its time to drive, but who knows how long that takes? The thing with the slow warmup is that you are running the engine for a minute or two longer than you would without it. That in itself is wearing the engine more. Take it easy, let the oil flow for a few seconds, then start driving. Do not lug a cold engine. That would be very destructive.

2) We know that having the oil up to operating temperature is the most ideal condition for the engine. However, if we are expediting the creation of heat by increasing the size / frequency of the combustion process, and by friction, would it be possible that we creating additional engine stress through a more rapid thermal "shock" between a cold and hot temperature state? What about increasing the differences in temperature between different locations of the engine?
I don't think that matters much. If it did, then there would be tons of engine failures from cold starts. Just think of how quickly the piston goes from cold as :devil to hot as :devil. The engineers who designed the engine took into account what parts were getting hot first and designed them not to leak or crack with those temperature differences.

3) Also, the serpentine belt and all the attached components runs at a proportional speed to the engine; could a slow warm up help increase the longevity of these parts?
You're kidding, right? You don't need to worry about accessories warming up. You aren't seeing any power steering pump heaters are you?
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
The oil pump is turning and moving oil the second you hit the starter.
Here's a thought on drastically reducing engine wear. Hook some type of delay switch, in series with the fuel pump fuse. Car would crank, no fuel for fuel for about 7 seconds... oil is pumped, switch kicks in and fuel is supplied. Engine is a happy camper. :)

Actually, I've heard the same effect can be had by flooring the gas pedal to the limit while cranking. Someone try it and let me know. :devil
 
Here's a thought on drastically reducing engine wear. Hook some type of delay switch, in series with the fuel pump fuse. Car would crank, no fuel for fuel for about 7 seconds... oil is pumped, switch kicks in and fuel is supplied. Engine is a happy camper. :)

Actually, I've heard the same effect can be had by flooring the gas pedal to the limit while cranking. Someone try it and let me know. :devil
Dual Remote Bypass & Prelube Pump - S2KI Honda S2000 Forums

Flooring the pedal should put it into clear flood mode and allow fast cranking without starting.
 
The dummy gauge is very misleading. The gauge stays in the same spot whether its 186 degrees or 220 degrees. Once you get past that though, then it starts to move. I would know, I got mine up to 249 degrees once. :0
Yikes. Did this happen on a 7th gen? If so how were you able to gauge the temperature? OBD2 reader?

Yes, some are very much underselling loaded vs unloaded. I would say once the oil has reached all the parts, then its time to drive, but who knows how long that takes? The thing with the slow warmup is that you are running the engine for a minute or two longer than you would without it. That in itself is wearing the engine more. Take it easy, let the oil flow for a few seconds, then start driving. Do not lug a cold engine. That would be very destructive.
Hmm. I never thought of the cumulative cost of added engine wear from idle warm-up time.

I don't think that matters much. If it did, then there would be tons of engine failures from cold starts. Just think of how quickly the piston goes from cold as :devil to hot as :devil. The engineers who designed the engine took into account what parts were getting hot first and designed them not to leak or crack with those temperature differences.
I totally agree with you. But I'm thinking about the long, long term effects of these cold starts... and if easing the engine to operating temperature via warmup could have a beneficial effect to cars with cars aiming to hit 150k, 200k, or even 250k+ miles. I assume automotive engineers probably consider 10 years / 150k (just throwing a random ass number out) or so to be an acceptable lifespan for these cars, and design accordingly, no? Perhaps warming up could be one of many variables that can affect the longevity of our vehicles, positively, or negatively.

You're kidding, right? You don't need to worry about accessories warming up. You aren't seeing any power steering pump heaters are you?
Whaaat? You never installed your aftermarket PS Fluid heater / cooler setup? You gotta get that liquid at optimal temperature ASAP for maximum handling ability when vtec kicks in...

But really I was thinking more along the lines of from a materials standpoint - would a more gradual rise of temperature on metallic moving parts extend longevity? I admit, this one is a bit of a stretch. The failure points for these accessories are likely not dictated by spinning a serpentine belt too fast, too soon. Haha.
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
Saw the thread title, clicked on thread, instantly disappointed. This thread is NOT what I expected. ;)
Yeah, Jimi. I figured I'd snag a few like you. LOL
 
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